[B-Greek] Translating Mark 1:4 and 1:8 (revised)
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at ioa.com
Thu Nov 3 17:09:52 EST 2005
On Nov 3, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Dan Gleason wrote:
> Dr Conrad
> Thank you for the very candid and constructive critisism. I admit,
> I may be wrong on the way I translated Holy Spirit but the more
> important issue is how I translated the word baptism.
> Regarding my interlinear approach, I think translating the greek
> verb BAPTW as a primary word pointing to "immersion" in all it's
> cognates rather than to an alternate connotation such as "ritual
> washing for the remission of sins" leads to seeing the Greek text
> in a new light.
Part of the problem (what I, at least, view as a problem) is that you
are thinking of BAPTW, a verb which does mean "dip" or "immerse" in a
very concrete sense, as what BAPTIZW really means, so much so, in
fact, that you are even writing BAPTW here as if it were the verb in
the texts of Mark 1:4 and 1:8.
> For example, in my Mk 1:4 post the theme of immersing in the
> wilderness points to Moses, Elias, and Jesus who were all "immersed
> in the wilderness" - one for 40 yrs, the other two for 40 days.
> Immersion also points to Baptism (as washing) then to "Imersion in
> Water" (a form of Chistening for people), then on to "immersion in
> the Holy Spirit" (Mk 1:8) The way I see it, the word "immersion"
> does double duty whereas baptism does not.
And as George has already pointed out, you've now moved on to
"immersion" as some sort of code-word for "long-term residence" in
the desert. I think you are playing games with Greek and English
rather than dealing with demonstrable meanings.
>> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com>
>> To: Dan Gleason <dan-bgreek at hotmail.com>
>> CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating Mark 1:8 (revised)
>> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:52:25 -0500
>> Dan, you've made perfectly clear that you intend to persist with
>> this "interlinear" mode of transliteration despite the fact that
>> several respondents have called attention to its inaccurate
>> representation of the sense of the Greek. So here "immerse" for
>> "BAPTIZW" has been faulted by several respondents as inaccurate
>> certainy for the second verb form here (BAPTISEI), and while you
>> might think "a Holy Spirit" accurately represents the Greek text
>> PNEUMATI hAGIWi, what you're deriving from the Greek is pidgin-
>> English rather than an equivalent of what the Greek text says.
>> What's wrong with this "interlinear" style of "translation" is
>> that it's based on an assumption that the "forest" of a sequence
>> of discourse is no less and no more than but exactly equal to the
>> sum of the "trees" of words inside that sequence. I think that's
>> been stated in different ways in several of the responses to your
>> idiosyncratic renderings of Marcan texts, but I felt it was worth
>> reiterating "yet once more again," despite the fact that you've
>> made it obvious that you intend to go on doing it this way.
>> On Nov 3, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Dan Gleason wrote:
>>> Translating Mark 1:8 (revised)
>>> EGW EBAPTISA UMAS UDATI
>>> I immersed you in Water ...
>>> AUTOS DE BAPTISEI UMAS EN PNEUMATI AGIWi
>>> but he will-immerse you in <a-Holy Spirit > correct to "a Holy
>>> Spirit." .
>>> Is this translation accurate?
>>> Based on the feedback I have recieved re PNEUMATI AGIWi (an
>>> antherous noun modified by an adjective) my new translation is
>>> "a Holy Spirit."
>>> In all similar circumstances I will never use "a-" and connect
>>> it to the noun again.
>>> However, I don't think there is anything wrong with my use of
>>> the hyphen for embedded words.
>>> I don't see anything wrong with this interlinear approach.
>>> I have read the feedback about why using "the" instead of "a"
>>> with HS is preferred but I am not yet convinced.
>>> When I first posted, I gave the following reason for using the
>>> indefinite article:
>>> The term Holy Spirit is being anartharously introduced for the
>>> first time.
>>> Something like a character in a play who is making his first
>>> The audience who are "in the know" know it refers to God ... but
>>> for the
>>> pagans in the audience ...
>>> Is it possible that an indefinite translation was intended until the
>>> character was more fully developed in subsequent verses?
>>> Is there anything wrong with my reasoning here?
>>> Dan Gleason
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>>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad2 at mac.com
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
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