[B-Greek] 1st John 2:22

kgraham0938 at comcast.net kgraham0938 at comcast.net
Wed Nov 2 08:07:42 EST 2005


@ Richard:

Yeah and Dr.Conrad make a good point about John 15:5 those are'nt parellels, maybe that is the reason why BDAG used Demosthenes as a source.  

--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Hello Folks, 
> 
> Well if Dr. Conrad can yield on this, I certainly can too! Besides, who 
> am I to hold out against the likes of ATR, BDF and Smyth? I have no doubt 
> that there are negatives in the GNT which are unnecessary (i.e., from an 
> English speaker's perspective) and untranslatable. I J 2:22 appears to be 
> a case in point. Still, no one has yet been able to cite a parallel verse 
> from the GNT where the redundant negative is found in a hOTI (or hWS) 
> clause introduced by a verb which is semantically negative, like 
> ARNOUMAI. Dr. Conrad rightly points out that J 15:5 is not analogous 
> because, though both verses contain multiple negatives, in the Gospel the 
> negative is REPEATED stengthening the negation. (A repeated negative may 
> also serve to reverse the negation and so make a positive statement.) But 
> in the Letter the OUK is MERELY redundant: it serves neither to 
> strengthen nor to reverse the statement. These two categories of multiple 
> negatives must be clearly distinguished: Repeated negatives and Redundant 
> negatives. Hansen and Quinn clearly distinguish them, Greek: An Intensive 
> Course, p. 774. But I wonder if a good parallel can be found in the LXX? 
> I would like to hear what Dr. Pietersma has to say about this. 
> 
> Yours in His grace, 
> 
> Richard Ghilardi - qodeshlayhvh at juno.com 
> New Haven, Connecticut USA 
> 
> ================================================== 
> 
> On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:43:15 -0500 Carl W.Conrad 
> writes: 
> > 
> > On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:54 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote: 
> > 
> > > 
> > > On Nov 1, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Carl W. Conrad wrote: 
> > > 
> > >> OK, I'll yield on this but it would appear that the doubling of 
> > the 
> > >> negation here is not of the same kind as the doubling in, say, 
> > that 
> > >> in John 15:5 CWRIS EMOU OU DUNASQE POIEIN OUDEN ... 
> > > 
> > > I would agree that this is not a "surface structure" syntactical 
> > > double negative since the first negation is tied up with the 
> > lexical 
> > > semantics of the verb. ATR page 1164 "There is one instance of OU 
> > in 
> > > indirect discourse where it is pleonastic according to the 
> > classic 
> > > idiom ... 1st John 2:22." However BDF #429 finds this idiom 
> > classical 
> > > supported by K-G (? some german work). 
> > > 
> > > "... negatives which appear commonly in subordinate constructions 
> > > following upon a verb of negative meaning ..." (67.12.2 Attic 
> > Greek 
> > > Prose Syntax) 
> > 
> > The reference is to Kühner-Gerth, the 1898 edition of which is on 
> > line at the Perseus web-site, but I can't find this reference. In 
> > any 
> > case, what you've cited from BDF concerns negatives with infinitives 
> > 
> > (§429). I don't find in BDF any discussion of the sort of 
> > construction we have here in 1 John 2:22. 
> > 
> > LSJ (s.v. ARNEOMAI): 4. in expressing denial, c. inf., either 
> > without 
> > MH, deny that . . , A.Eu.611, E.IA966; or with MH, say that . . 
> > not . . , Ar.Eq.572, Antipho 3.3.7, etc.; OUD' AUTOS ARNEITAI MH 
> > OU . . D.C.50.22; also OUK AN ARNOIMHN TO hORAN S.Ph.118; A. hOTI 
> > OU ..., hWS OU ..., X.Ath.2.17, Lys. 4.1, D.9.54. 
> > 
> > Smyth §2743 states the matter most clearly: "After DENY, SPEAK 
> > AGAINST, DOUBT, etc., followed by hWS or hOTI, a redundant OU is 
> > often inserted. Thus, hWS MEN OUK ALHQH TAUT' ESTIN, OUC hEXET' 
> > ANTILEGEIN -- 'that this is true you will not be able to deny" D. 
> > 8:31. 
> > Note a follows: "here the hWS clause is an internal accusative 
> > (accusative of content) after ANTILEGEIN. Originally the meaning 
> > seems to have been 'you will not be able to deny in this way -- this 
> > 
> > is not true' where OU is redundant." 
> > 
> > 
> > Carl W. Conrad 
> > Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus) 
> > 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243 
> > cwconrad2 at mac.com 
> > WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/ 
> > 
> > --- 
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> > 
> > 
> --- 
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