[B-Greek] 1st John 2:22
kgraham0938 at comcast.net
kgraham0938 at comcast.net
Wed Nov 2 08:07:42 EST 2005
Yeah and Dr.Conrad make a good point about John 15:5 those are'nt parellels, maybe that is the reason why BDAG used Demosthenes as a source.
KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net
-------------- Original message --------------
> Hello Folks,
> Well if Dr. Conrad can yield on this, I certainly can too! Besides, who
> am I to hold out against the likes of ATR, BDF and Smyth? I have no doubt
> that there are negatives in the GNT which are unnecessary (i.e., from an
> English speaker's perspective) and untranslatable. I J 2:22 appears to be
> a case in point. Still, no one has yet been able to cite a parallel verse
> from the GNT where the redundant negative is found in a hOTI (or hWS)
> clause introduced by a verb which is semantically negative, like
> ARNOUMAI. Dr. Conrad rightly points out that J 15:5 is not analogous
> because, though both verses contain multiple negatives, in the Gospel the
> negative is REPEATED stengthening the negation. (A repeated negative may
> also serve to reverse the negation and so make a positive statement.) But
> in the Letter the OUK is MERELY redundant: it serves neither to
> strengthen nor to reverse the statement. These two categories of multiple
> negatives must be clearly distinguished: Repeated negatives and Redundant
> negatives. Hansen and Quinn clearly distinguish them, Greek: An Intensive
> Course, p. 774. But I wonder if a good parallel can be found in the LXX?
> I would like to hear what Dr. Pietersma has to say about this.
> Yours in His grace,
> Richard Ghilardi - qodeshlayhvh at juno.com
> New Haven, Connecticut USA
> On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 20:43:15 -0500 Carl W.Conrad
> > On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:54 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> > >
> > > On Nov 1, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
> > >
> > >> OK, I'll yield on this but it would appear that the doubling of
> > the
> > >> negation here is not of the same kind as the doubling in, say,
> > that
> > >> in John 15:5 CWRIS EMOU OU DUNASQE POIEIN OUDEN ...
> > >
> > > I would agree that this is not a "surface structure" syntactical
> > > double negative since the first negation is tied up with the
> > lexical
> > > semantics of the verb. ATR page 1164 "There is one instance of OU
> > in
> > > indirect discourse where it is pleonastic according to the
> > classic
> > > idiom ... 1st John 2:22." However BDF #429 finds this idiom
> > classical
> > > supported by K-G (? some german work).
> > >
> > > "... negatives which appear commonly in subordinate constructions
> > > following upon a verb of negative meaning ..." (67.12.2 Attic
> > Greek
> > > Prose Syntax)
> > The reference is to Kühner-Gerth, the 1898 edition of which is on
> > line at the Perseus web-site, but I can't find this reference. In
> > any
> > case, what you've cited from BDF concerns negatives with infinitives
> > (§429). I don't find in BDF any discussion of the sort of
> > construction we have here in 1 John 2:22.
> > LSJ (s.v. ARNEOMAI): 4. in expressing denial, c. inf., either
> > without
> > MH, deny that . . , A.Eu.611, E.IA966; or with MH, say that . .
> > not . . , Ar.Eq.572, Antipho 3.3.7, etc.; OUD' AUTOS ARNEITAI MH
> > OU . . D.C.50.22; also OUK AN ARNOIMHN TO hORAN S.Ph.118; A. hOTI
> > OU ..., hWS OU ..., X.Ath.2.17, Lys. 4.1, D.9.54.
> > Smyth §2743 states the matter most clearly: "After DENY, SPEAK
> > AGAINST, DOUBT, etc., followed by hWS or hOTI, a redundant OU is
> > often inserted. Thus, hWS MEN OUK ALHQH TAUT' ESTIN, OUC hEXET'
> > ANTILEGEIN -- 'that this is true you will not be able to deny" D.
> > 8:31.
> > Note a follows: "here the hWS clause is an internal accusative
> > (accusative of content) after ANTILEGEIN. Originally the meaning
> > seems to have been 'you will not be able to deny in this way -- this
> > is not true' where OU is redundant."
> > Carl W. Conrad
> > Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> > 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> > cwconrad2 at mac.com
> > WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
> > ---
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