[B-Greek] John 16:8
dirkzwager at pandora.be
Sat Feb 12 12:55:43 EST 2005
There remains in my opinion something difficult in this text.
ELEGCW, as has been stated, has various possibilities. But it always goes
about proving something without doubt and without any contradiction. So the
question is: do we have here (external) proof for the world as a whole or
(internal) proof for individual members of "the world".
Verse 8 does not give us any clue to solve the problem: the words are very
Then: what is the meaning of hOTI in verse 9, 10 and 11: "that" or "because"
Verse 9 is clear. The sins of people that do not believe in Christ are not
Verse 10 is less clear. What is exactly the connection between DIKAIOSUNH
and the fact that Christ has gone to heaven?
Verse 11 gives us another problem. The devil has got his judgment. But what
is exactly the connection of this fact with the KRISIS of the world that is
the object of the proof the Spirit is giving to (members of) the world ?
I can give answers to these questions. I can imagine other answers than
mine, answers that I could accept and answers that I would not like to give.
Others will have other choices. It is not the place here to discuss that.
But these lines are showing (at least in my opinion) that without exegesis
of verse 9-11 it is impossible to determine the exact sense of ELEGCW in
Dr. A. Dirkzwager
e-mail dirkzwager at pandora.be
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Aan: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
CC: <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Verzonden: zaterdag 12 februari 2005 14:40
Onderwerp: Re: [B-Greek] John 16:8
> At 6:04 AM -0500 2/12/05, George F Somsel wrote:
> >On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:23:48 +0100 "Beata Urbanek" <baurbanek at op.pl>
> >> Dear B-Greekers,
> >> I'm currently working on the topic of KRISIS and the role of
> >> Paraclet in it. I'm not sure what the meaning of the verb ELEGCW in
> >> John 16:8 is: is it quite neutral: "expose" or is it stronger and
> >> means "to convince" or even - as TDNT suggests - "to show someone
> >> his sin and to summon him to repentance", "set right".
> >> Maybe it'd be going into theology, but according to the meaning of
> >> this verb: is the work of Paraclet external or internal (concerning
> >> the world)?
> >> Beata Urbanek
> >> Poland
> >8. KAI ELQWN EKEINOS ELEGCEI TON KOSMON PERI hAMARTIAS KAI PERI
> >DIKAIOSUNHS KAI PERI KRISEW:
> >9. PERI hAMARTIAS MEN, . . .
> >10. PERI DIKAIOSUNHS DE, . . .
> >11. PERI DE KRISEWS . . .
> >I think it is necessary to read the entire section in order to come to a
> >proper judgment. If it were to be internal (to the church ?), then it
> >would not have stated that it was TON KOSMON. Neither would it have had
> >a hOTI clause as is found in v. 9 hOTI OU PISTEUOUSIN EIS EME. "Set
> >right" doesn't seem to catch the understanding that I seem to detect
> >here. It may or may not "set right" the situation, but it certainly is
> >"to bring to light, expose." The function seems to be to stand and say
> >"Choose today whom you will serve."
> I have looked at Andrew Birch's response to the question as well as
> George's very fine response. Although I have no reason to think there's
> historical linkage between Socrates and the Johannine usage, I think an
> understanding of the verb ELEGCW might be enhanced by awareness of the
> Socratic educational "elenchus" as a probing critique of a person's
> assumptions, testing to ascertain which, if any, are valid, and
> demonstrating the fact that a person is not what he claims to be.
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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