[B-Greek] John 3:16
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jun 18 07:54:45 EDT 2004
Craig, I don't think you're saying here anything that is inconsistent with
the eloquent final sentence of the NET note on this verse, the note that
Iver called attention to in his first response (first in the current
thread, at any rate): "the focus of the Greek construction here is on the
nature of God's love, addressing its mode, intensity, and extent."
At 9:33 PM +1000 6/18/04, <newsgroupstuff at swiftdsl.com.au> wrote:
>> > : 24-39). Though the term more frequently refers to
>> > the manner in which something is done (see BAGD 597-98 s.v.
>> > hOUTWS, the following clause involving hWSTE
>> > plus the indicative (which stresses actual, but [usually]
>> > unexpected result) emphasizes the greatness of the gift
>> > God has given."
>> The translation "so much" is not only misleading, it is
>> positively incorrect. Thus dispite the fact that in every
>> other case it clearly indicates the manner in which something
>> occurs, some would have it mean "so much" simply because they
>> will it to be so. Here, as in the other cases, hOUTWS means
>> "In this manner."
>Well, I guess I am an amateur at this, but I hope you don't mind me making
>I just skimmed through most of the occurances of hOUTWS in the NT. To my
>mind, the vast majority certainly to refer to 'such a manner' or that kind
>of translation. Even for those which BAGD refers to as 'to denote degree', I
>think a case might be made that it still has a sense of 'such a manner' with
>the context supplying the intensity, as there is usually some explanation of
>'how much' to complete the 'so much' (cf Rev 16:18, Gal 3:3, Heb 12:21, 1
>John 4:11). Even though in (modern?) English we often can use 'so' intensely
>('I am _so_ afraid!'), it is almost like we should really also expect the
>answer to the 'how much?' question ('How afraid are you?').
>With regard to the idea of having an emphatic role, that seems to make
>sense, since often when 'such a manner' is mentioned, it is because the
>manner is noteworthy for some reason or other.
>So maybe the 'so much' translation could be misleading in that it is
>ambiguous whether it means 'a lot!' or whether it means 'such an amount', or
>whether it should only mean 'such a manner'. However, when we consider the
>whole verse I don't really think it is that big a deal.
>If the hOUTWS is to barely mean 'such a manner', or the way in which God
>loved, I am sure that the author did not intend merely to explain that love
>in a technical way. He is saying that way God HGAPHSEN is very noteworthy.
>And surely the noteworthyness of love will have to do with the degree and
>extent? Indeed, TON hUION AUTOU TON MONOGENH EDWKEN. What is more, the
>result is the difference between APOLHTAI and ZWHN AIWNION. This surely is
>intended to express not just 'how' (= factually) God loved, but also 'how
>much'. Surely we are meant to take note of the enormity of what God has done
>in giving his only son? So ultimately, if we translate as 'so much', and
>that helps the reader understand the intent of hOUTWS within the intent of
>the whole sentence, is that really so misleading?
>Or is there some other understanding of the text that is somehow facilitated
>by hOUTWS as 'such a manner'?
>As for below:
>> Some have held that hOUTWS
>> refers backwards to descriptive aspects
>> regarding God's love for the KOSMOS, while others (myself
>> included) believe that the more traditional view of hOUTWS
>> HGAPHSEN implying God's 'such great love" for the KOSMOS
>> takes the hWSTE clause as a result. I guess it amounts to two
>> views: (1) "THAT's how god
>> loved the world, and so he sent ... "; (2) God loved the
>> world to such an
>> extent that he sent ..."
>In option (1) "THAT's how God loved the world...", is "THAT" referring to
>previous verses (say 3:13-15)? I've never considered that before.
>Otherwise the two options as my comments above would be:
>[A] "For God loved the world IN THIS WAY, that he..."
>[B] "For God loved the world SO MUCH, that he..."
>[A] has the text following hWSTE describing the way he loves. [B] has the
>text following hWSTE as the result of God's love. However, as above, while
>technically there may be some difference between description and result, is
>there that much difference in the sense? When the subject is 'God loving'
>isn't any description going to be the result of God's loving intent in any
>case, not just some kind of incidental result?
>Anyhow, maybe I am getting into too much theology outside the scope of
>b-greek. I don't know.. I'm still new to the list :-) Please let me know if
>I am going out of bounds! Also please let me know where my thinking on this
>is off track!
>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>B-Greek mailing list
>B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
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